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pe7erpark3r

@Vex-Man said in Pet and Vex Man debate WAR:

Sorry for taking my time to answer, I'm a busy man, just like you. So please forgive...

Plays*
But I say some or a/the few (but not 0) wars are actually caused by the religions or doctrines. I stand for this thesis. Also, I say religious or doctrinal elements are enough for a whole war in my examples.

Duly noted :grin:

Taiping rebellion- Hong got divinity of Jesus and according to him, he was a brother of jesus .He was inspired by 10 commandments of Jesus and somewhat communism too. He went to thistle mountain to conspire against religious traditions of that place. On that moment, he wanted to arrest a lot of leaders of that religious group and wanted to join God worshiping society. He did not only accepted thistle mountain charcoal burner who claimed to channel God but also a farmer who claimed to channel Jesus. Also, he claimed that worshipers will go to heaven during prayers. Then he divided his society into four parts and liked to fight against demons. In 1850, he declared that he will be fought for the heaven and Jesus had urged him to do so. Demons were supposed as Qing dynasty. In 1851, unexpectedly he won but he continued this battle. When he won Yongan, he strictly told his soldiers to follow almost all commandments. Then he occupied Nanjing and he declared to cease warfare. He had Nanjing for 11 years and he left secular matters of governance thereafter. Europeans helped Qing dynasty to seize back and it was not expected by Hong. In 1864, Hong was found to be dead and during Nanzing seizing 30 to 70 million Taipingings were killed. It was an all out war because both sides destroyed farmland, butchered cities & villages, and killed animals. This war was not against only soldiers but also showed merciless to civilians. The Qing killed all the prisoners who were rebelling against him in Guangxi. Both sides exterminated whole population when they occupied a new specific territory.

I think the taping rebellion is a great example for a war that happened because of social injustice. The population that followed Hong Xiuquan were the Hakka. They did follow him, because the Qing dynasty did not allow for any social advancement for the Hakka. They were at the bottom, and society kept them at the bottom.

But I concede, that religious elements played a big role in keeping his followers in line.

According to the general definition of a war is- an armed fighting between two or more countries or groups:https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/war. If police of USA fights against those religious extremist groups, it will be said a limited war. Or if USA fights against a terrorist country such as Iraq after getting permission of Christians, it will be said a limited war too.

I agree with your definition.

But I agree with you that war against terrorism or war between two or more terrorist groups are limited than an all out war is. You have no mercy for your opponent and you do not follow any type of battles’ rules in an all out war. However, you did not choose this thesis ‘no all out war is caused by any doctrine’. Now I think it is your thesis, correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, this is what I meant indeed!

I would talk about an all out war i.e. Vietnam war. The two dangerous ideologies, communism and capitalism fought in the Vietnam war. The main reason between this war was communism threatened to expand to almost all south-east Asia. The Capitalist country USA had a phobia for communism. North Vietnam was leaded by USSR, China and N.Korea. On the other hand, South Vietnam was leaded by USA, S.Korea, Cambodia and by some other nations. 13 to 42 LC people were killed. This war became an all out war when USA released nuclear radar bombs through F-105 and B-52.

The Vietnam war is a Proxy war fought between the US and the USSR. So yes, certainly 2 groups fought each other. In thase case I wouldn't even say that the US is united by its ideology as much as the USSR. I don't think capitalism is an ideology or doctrine, and I don't think capitalism unites people. But communism certainly is. It is a fight for dominion, it is a fight for power...

Zack Williamson

@pe7erpark3r
@pe7erpark3r said in Pet and Vex Man debate WAR:

@Vex-Man said in Pet and Vex Man debate WAR:

@pe7erpark3r said in Pet and Vex Man debate WAR:

We both are agree on a point that "some wars are caused by religions" and "some others wars were fought for the name of religion"

No, I do not agree that some wars are caused by religions. I agree that religion prays a role in allowing some wars to happen (as in doctrines uniting people, and promising rewards). But my thesis is that the actual cause, that is enough for a whole war to break out, is something more than just a doctrine/religion.

Plays*
But I say some or a/the few (but not 0) wars are actually caused by the religions or doctrines. I stand for this thesis. Also, I say religious or doctrinal elements are enough for a whole war in my examples.
Taiping rebellion- Hong got divinity of Jesus and according to him, he was a brother of jesus .He was inspired by 10 commandments of Jesus and somewhat communism too. He went to thistle mountain to conspire against religious traditions of that place. On that moment, he wanted to arrest a lot of leaders of that religious group and wanted to join God worshiping society. He did not only accepted thistle mountain charcoal burner who claimed to channel God but also a farmer who claimed to channel Jesus. Also, he claimed that worshipers will go to heaven during prayers. Then he divided his society into four parts and liked to fight against demons. In 1850, he declared that he will be fought for the heaven and Jesus had urged him to do so. Demons were supposed as Qing dynasty. In 1851, unexpectedly he won but he continued this battle. When he won Yongan, he strictly told his soldiers to follow almost all commandments. Then he occupied Nanjing and he declared to cease warfare. He had Nanjing for 11 years and he left secular matters of governance thereafter. Europeans helped Qing dynasty to seize back and it was not expected by Hong. In 1864, Hong was found to be dead and during Nanzing seizing 30 to 70 million Taipingings were killed. It was an all out war because both sides destroyed farmland, butchered cities & villages, and killed animals. This war was not against only soldiers but also showed merciless to civilians. The Qing killed all the prisoners who were rebelling against him in Guangxi. Both sides exterminated whole population when they occupied a new specific territory.

I agree that some wars are only fought in the "name of religion".

I took my time to understand Peter's arguments (we discussed some of them in PMs)

Since I am an atheist and peter is a christian, we would like to limit this debate with Christianity only. We will not talk about Islam.
The main argument of peter was - 'Christianity grows through only conversion'. It is all about current events and is no longer related to past.
I give you my counter-argument - 'Christianity actually does not grow throu conversion',
Also, we both are agree on a point "Statistically it is true that Christianity grows its followers through conversion"

If your argument is that Christianity grows through wars, then it is accepted. However I think the question how Christianity grows is worth its own discussion.

Actually, both were my arguments. I accept that second argument was a bit off-topic.

Is there any word limit ?

good idea yeah... lets say around 500 words.

Alright :)

My counter-argument has four parts- I will write only first part in this post. Until this part ain't countered properly, I will not reveal other three parts.

Part no. 1- Christian extremists- Once upon a time American president Mr. Barack Obama was giving a speech against terrorism. He tried to cite 'Dark side of Christianity'. The problem with media is, they do not enough attention to christian terrorists. There are some christian extremist groups which are still active-
(i). The army of God, USA- It is known for endorsing violence against gays. This bombardier group especially Rudolph bombed a lesbian bar (Atlanta) in 1997. Also, this group kills those doctors who provide abortions. This is how this group contributes the growth of Christianity by increasing their birth rates. Rudolph is the leader of this group. The whole group reiterates proverbs 24:10-12 in many interviews. In one London clinic alone, 6000 women were affected by this group (2017).
(ii). Eastern lighting, China (based on Gospel of Matthew 24:27)- This group believes that this world is going to end soon. Therefore, the demons should be killed as soon as possible. This group considers women are inferior to men. However, it has a notion that Jesus will come on the earth in a form of Chinese women. In 2014, a woman was killed by this group because she rejected to give her mobile number. In 2002, the members of this cult kidnapped China Gospel Fellowship's 34 members because they were not joining this cult.
(iii). The Lord's resistance army, Uganda - It has spread its terrorism from Uganda to Congo, CAR and South Sudan. According to human rights watch, it has committed thousands of killings and kidnappings. The main leader of this group kony hopes that sub-sahara will implement a Christianize law like sharia law in the region. The LRA has abducted more than 67000 youth, including 30,000 children, for use as child soldiers, sex slaves and porters since 1987.
(iv). The National Liberation Front of Tripura, India- It has no tolerance for other religious people i.e. Hindus. It kills, kidnaps and tortures those Hindus who refuse to become Christians. It has established Christian fundamentalist Government in Tripura. Also, this movement hopes to secede from India. In 2000, it killed several Hindus who were participating in 'Durga Puja'. And in May 2003, at least 30 Hindus were murdered during one of its killing sprees. The Baptist church of tripura supplies army items to it. 5,000 tribal villagers were forcefully converted during 1999-2001. In 2001, 826 terrorist attacks were done by this group.

(v). The Phineas Priesthood- It believes that non-WASPs should be killed and it is an order of the God. Whoever are whites, can join this group and white Anglo Saxon Protestants are God's chosen people- a nice notion. Lerry one of the member of this group, fired over 100 rounds at targets. To be succinct, this group bombs abortion clinics and robs banks' money. It is based on Bible's old testament in which God rewarded someone for killing an interfaith couple.
(vi). The Concerned Christians- A group which is active in Israel!!! This group tried to blow up holy sites of Muslims and wants to throw Muslims out of the nation.

Christianity grows its adherents by killing homosexuals, by illegally increasing Christians' birth rates, by forcefully conversion and by throwing out other religious people. In a christian country, homosexuals do not and cannot produce christian babies.

I do agree, that doctrines do motivate a lot of evil. Also "christian" doctrines like the ones you mentioned. But all of the things mentioned do not fulfill the defintion of "war". This is terrorism. Even if the president of the US calls what the US do a "war against terrorism", these certainly do not fullfill the criteria of an all out war (like the korean war). At least as far as I can judge from what you wrote about those incidents/terroristic groups.

According to the general definition of a war is- an armed fighting between two or more countries or groups:https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/war. If police of USA fights against those religious extremist groups, it will be said a limited war. Or if USA fights against a terrorist country such as Iraq after getting permission of Christians, it will be said a limited war too.
But I agree with you that war against terrorism or war between two or more terrorist groups are limited than an all out war is. You have no mercy for your opponent and you do not follow any type of battles’ rules in an all out war. However, you did not choose this thesis ‘no all out war is caused by any doctrine’. Now I think it is your thesis, correct me if I am wrong.
I would talk about an all out war i.e. Vietnam war. The two dangerous ideologies, communism and capitalism fought in the Vietnam war. The main reason between this war was communism threatened to expand to almost all south-east Asia. The Capitalist country USA had a phobia for communism. North Vietnam was leaded by USSR, China and N.Korea. On the other hand, South Vietnam was leaded by USA, S.Korea, Cambodia and by some other nations. 13 to 42 LC people were killed. This war became an all out war when USA released nuclear radar bombs through F-105 and B-52.

Matt_Aranha

@justin93 Just one? Chile, to visit Rapa Nui/Easter Island. If I could choose more than one there are many, but Peru, Cambodia, Bali, most of Africa, Iceland, Japan, Mexico... oh shit just take me everywhere 😂

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