@petrapark3r said in Fact check with Pet: Why atheism is irrational:
You need to have the Holy Spirit to interpret the bible correctly and you need to be united to the true apostolic church.
This is what most theists speak with faith. It is not even close to any logic. Perception is the limited source of knowledge. As you say, those people need to have holy spirit for interpreting, this is nothing more than manipulation and coaxing. Having holy spirit by some few people means only a bunch of people can interpret the bible. Isn’t it much more limited than perception ?
I have proven to you that the literal interpretation of Genesis is complete nonsense
It makes Bible imperfect. Bible is perfect according to those who interpret Bible as it is. You call them nonintellectual persons.
Also, the fourth argument of Aquinas was, that we find various perfections in the world, and that these must have their source in something completely perfect.
Conclusion- Bible is imperfect, it was not created by God.
If he created the imperfect Bible, He will be called imperfect.
I’m pointing out the attributes of Aquinas’ God.
In his own words, ‘’His knowledge is not a habit, and is not discursive or argumentative.’’
While describing God is the good he also described ‘’he is intelligent, and His
act of intelligence is His essence. He understands by His essence, and understands Himself
In the 2nd book where he described the perfections of God, that he cannot make any person without soul, or make the sum of the angles of a triangle be not two right angles.
His God is bodiless because bodies have parts. There is no composition in his God.
Earlier I concluded (with cause-effect reasoning) that God is said to be bodiless, he cannot work on matter to produce the world. You said God was irrational there. Haven’t you ever read Aquinas’ cause-effect reasoning ? His reasoning is same as the reasoning of Indian nyayic theism. According to him, this world is product of creator God.
So what is remained in this debate ?
If you call only perceivable things real, then you have got a problem because you shouldn't be using a device that sends non-perceivable signals through the air.
There is no such thing as agnostic atheism.
You seem to be bemused about theism, atheism and agnostic here. I could say there is no such thing as agnostic theism but I wouldn’t say. Sounds like you have not read anything about Aquinas’ God. He was an agnoisitc theist. When you know there is a God but you cannot know any of his characteristics, is agnosticism. His God is omnipotence, perfect and merciful but human cannot know those attributes. The reason behind Aquinas’ agnosticism was -
- Human is limited but God is unlimited
- God is past and far from human and universe.
- Man is created by universe but God is the creator of universe.
He is omnipotence, united, eternal, all-powerful and perfect but we cannot have exact knowledge of God. We can know those attributes with universal things. This theory of Aquinas is not contradictory to theism. Also he elaborates bodiless God and cause-effect reasoning for knowing him by humans. I argument-ed against it earlier and some other posts in same thread.
The argument against his god can be given by an other way too-
An objection on his omnipotence I raised when you asked how relation of houses and God comes into between. God is held to be one on the ground that, if there were many gods they would act with different plans and purposes, and consequently a harmonious world, as we have, wouldn't have been possible. But this argument aint sound, because we observe that many human beings like masons and even lower animals like ants and bees act together harmoniously to build objects like palaces, ant-hills and hives. God again is said to be eternally perfect. But eternal perfection is a meaningless epither. Perfection is only a removal of imperfection and it is meaningless to call a being perfect who was never imperfect.
I elaborate agnostic atheism now.
If you had ever read about this theory on internet, you would not have come up with your opinion’ ‘’there is no such theory as agnostic atheism.’’ I will give you an internet link as well.
Theism is a belief that God exists, it can be best understood something is true or false, as a preposition.
Atheism- a with theism must be understood ‘not god’ instead of ‘without God’
When you ask. ‘’is there God ?’’
Two answered can be given
- yes there is- theism
- no there is not- atheism
The above definitions were old ones.
Later some philosophers and non-philosophers claimed that Atheism should not be defined as preposition. It should be defined as psychological state. For more, you can check this Stanford university article -
If you call only perceivable things real, then you have got a problem because you shouldn't be using a device that sends non-perceivable signals through the air. Develish device eh?
There is not any instrument made for perception or measuring the God. However a device signals can be measured by an equipment.
If you only allow measurable things (the focus of science) and say anything that cannot be measured is not real, then you are an atheist.
If you allow deduction / inference from the perceivable things, then you can deduce, as I did, that the atheistic viewpoint is irrational.
If you remain with the perceivable things and simply say you cannot perceive the origin of the universe and thus you don't know, you are agnostic.
There will be 7 probabilities not only four
take the idea of a spectrum of probabilities seriously, and place human judgments about the existence of God along it, between two extremes of opposite certainty. The spectrum is continuous, but it can be represented by the following seven milestones along the way.
- Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C. G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'
- Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto
theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe
in God and live my life on the assumption that he is
- Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'
- Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's
existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'
- Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic
but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'
- Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'IT H E G O D H Y P O T H E SIS cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'
7 Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same
conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.
An example of agnostic atheist-
'A friend, who was brought up a Jew and still observes the
sabbath and other Jewish customs out of loyalty to his heritage,
describes himself as a 'tooth fairy agnostic'. He regards God as no
more probable than the tooth fairy. You can't disprove either
hypothesis, and both are equally improbable. He is an a-theist to
exactly the same large extent that he is an a-fairyist. And agnostic
about both, to the same small extent.
Materialism gave things existence? You mean the universe itself gave the chain its existence?
You have no rational answer. That is the point of the argument I made. Whichever answer you give, may it be God or may it be an eternal chain, the answer is irrational = non understandable to our reason (reason = lat. Ratio).
And the answer God is not more irrational than the other irrational answer.
. If "the world" was the answer, then this world that you say is the reason for its own existence would be irrational.
You didn’t read between the lines. I elaborated naturalism or materialism theory after my two sentences. I would not reiterate for anyone. Reiterating anything is waste of time. The answer has already be given, when you will reply on that I will reply you ahead. Just saying I have no rational answer or repeating yourself is not a valid and/or strong argument. It could be more logical when you could argument against how theory was logical.
Only the sentence of yours were not repetitive would be able to reply by me
In fact the answer God could actually be said to be more rational because it has the advantage, that if you say "God" is the reason, then the world would be rational in itself
Explain it more. If I say ‘God’ is the reason he cannot be first cause. This is against cosmological argument. Right ?
You propably don't know, but atheism in the form of communism has brought much more cruelty and fear. In fact communism had many times the number of victims that nazi germany did.
You knew affected countries’ population in those both eras. Didn’t you ? Nazism never affected China and India. It affected jew and polish region more than soviet union as well. Whereas bolshevic plague started from Russia that’s population should be taken into consideration. It effected the most populous countries China and India.
In an incident protestants were too much than other protestants. Therefore, no. Of deaths in first incident > no. Of death in second incident
Science was developed in catholic universities. Science is not anti-christian. Also "science" just like IQ is not an argument.
A christian has to follow his religion until 18 because his parents told him to do so. He has not been granted to choose the religion before this age. Some universities might be full of those students.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology
Science is not an argument like IQ. IQ was never an argument. When did I ever say IQ was an argument. I brought up IQ because your topic was catchy ‘’why atheism is irrational’’. Instead of that topic name it could be ‘’How atheism is unable to prove the god’’ seems more suitable.